4 - Reclaiming Balance with Daoist Traditions College of Chinese Medical Arts

Season 1, Episode 4: Daoist Traditions – Bridging Ancient Chinese Medicine & Modern Wellness

In this episode of the Wellness in Asheville Podcast, host Travis Richardson sits down with Dr. Mary Cissy Majebe, founder and president, and Rachel Nowakowski, vice president, of the Daoist Traditions College of Chinese Medical Arts — one of the Southeast’s most respected institutions for classical Chinese medicine education and holistic clinical care.

Dr. Majebe and Rachel share the inspiring origin story of the college, from its early days as a small, women-led initiative to becoming a nationally recognized hub for acupuncture, herbal medicine, and Daoist philosophy. They discuss the difference between Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) and Classical Chinese Medicine, the deep mind-body-spirit approach that guides their training, and how Daoist principles shape both patient care and practitioner development.

We explore the college’s commitment to root-cause healing, its integration of emotional and spiritual components into treatment, and its role in Asheville’s rich wellness legacy. You’ll also hear about their student clinic — an affordable, supervised setting open to the public — and the school’s ongoing community outreach with organizations like Haywood Street Congregation, Veterans Healing Farm, and 12 Baskets Café.

Whether you’re curious about acupuncture, considering a career in Chinese medicine, or seeking new ways to approach your own wellness journey, this episode is packed with wisdom, inspiration, and practical takeaways.

Key Takeaways:

• Classical vs. Traditional Chinese Medicine – How classical practice preserves spiritual depth alongside physical treatment.
• The Daoist Approach to Healing – Treating the person, not just the symptom, and embracing harmony with nature.
• Holistic Education – Why immersive, heart-centered training transforms both practitioners and patients.
• Community Connection – How students serve Asheville through outreach clinics and integrative care.

Timestamps:
00:00 – 02:30 | Introduction & Personal Connection to Daoist Traditions
02:30 – 15:00 | Founding Story & Early Challenges
15:00 – 28:00 | Classical vs. Traditional Chinese Medicine Explained
28:00 – 40:00 | Daoist Philosophy in Practice & Curriculum
40:00 – 54:00 | Student Experience & Transformation
54:00 – 1:05:00 | Community Outreach & Partnerships
1:05:00 – End | Enrollment Opportunities & Closing Reflections

Episode Links:

• Daoist Traditions College of Chinese Medical Arts – Website | Instagram
• Student Clinic – Affordable Acupuncture Care
• Haywood Street Congregation
• Veterans Healing Farm
• 12 Baskets Café – Asheville Poverty Initiative

The Wellness in Asheville podcast is produced by Be Well Asheville, your local news source covering health + wellness news + events in Asheville. Get the latest at bewellasheville.com or follow @bewellasheville.

Transcript

Episode 4: Podcast with Daoist Traditions

 [00:00:00] 

Today's guests are two of the guiding forces behind one of Asheville's most respected institutions in holistic medicine. Daoist Traditions, college of Chinese Medical Arts. Dr. Mary Sissy Jebe, founder and president, has spent decades bridging Eastern medicine with the West, pioneering the introduction of classical Chinese medicine education to the southeast.

Rachel Nowakowski, founder and vice president has been a Chinese medicine practitioner for 25 years and has been integral in helping the college [00:01:00] grow to where it is today. Together. They share how Daoist principles shape not only clinical care, but how we live, learn, and connect with ourselves and the world around us.

And before we kick things off today, I just have to say I am personally a huge fan of this clinic. I've been actually going there for many years now, and it's such a great gift to have a place like this right here in Asheville. You know, as a wellness destination, our city has a long, rich history that goes back decades and we have so much to be proud of.

Daoist traditions is, without a doubt, a huge part of that legacy. I really enjoyed my conversation with these two powerful, amazing women, and I hope you enjoy every bit as much as I did.

 welcome Dr. Jebe and Rachel to the Wellness in Asheville Podcast here to speak on all things Chinese medicine, including the great college [00:02:00] you've built right here in our community, the clinic, and of course, much, much more. Thank you. Thank you. So, yes. Uh, and I, you know, I actually am a regular at the student clinic, uh, and I've had some tremendous experiences of my own that I'm gonna love to share later on.

But just so the, the listeners know, you know, Thao Traditions in many ways, to me is like. One of the main cornerstones of holistic education in Asheville, uh, but its roots stretched back to a time when acupuncture was barely on the map here in the southeast. As I've researched and Dr. Jibe, you opened your clinic back in the eighties, um, long before most people had even heard of Chinese medicine.

And, uh, Rachel, you've helped guide the college's growth through decades of change. So. To begin, I know you, it's actually in the 22nd year here in Asheville, the colleges, [00:03:00] but what were those early days like? You know, started by four women, very interesting and inspiring. The early days were very interesting because what we started doing was contacting the National Association for Acupunctures and speaking with them, and we found out about a conference that they were doing actually down in Orlando.

So the four of us flew down to Orlando and we had our first introduction, and I think at that first introduction, all of a sudden we were like. You know, hearing everything that other schools had experienced and hearing their difficulties with going through accreditation. We seemed to be the beginners there listening, but we were so excited about the message that we wanted to get out and what we wanted students to be learning about Chinese medicine from the very beginning, [00:04:00] that we just jumped right in.

We, it's like. We didn't care about the fact that the water was 40 feet deep. You know, we just, we just jumped. And what was that like? You know, as a woman back in those days doing, I mean, what you've created here is, is is pretty massive. I mean, you've got the, the college, which is a very sophisticated apparatus in my opinion, educational institution.

This is a major, um, endeavor that you've built for, for the students. Like, it just feel, feels like, to me that would be intimidating for anyone. But even maybe just as you know, like you said, four women starting this, so back. Back when you did was, what was that like For me, it was, it was like, again, it was such a great idea, like, yeah, let, let's do this.

You know, it was really exciting. Um, at that point, um, sissy had been practicing for, uh. Uh, 30 years maybe. Um, uh, 2003. [00:05:00] 18 years. 18 years. And myself and, and Junie Northfleet, we were, we had graduated school in 1999, so in 2003 we were relatively new practitioners. But the idea of, you know, still, uh, learning our, you know, building our skills and building our own practices and, and opening a school at the same time.

Honestly, I don't know what I was thinking back then. It was, you know, it was an exciting time for me. I had not finished school relatively recently, and so I knew what it was like to go through school and it was an exciting, um, opportunity to help other people get excited about learning Chinese medicine too.

Mm-hmm. And. When we started, we had 10 students working out of one classroom, working out of one office. And um, we've, uh, it's, we've experienced a significant growth over the years and, you know, sissy had such a reputation in the community and already had been in practice for so long. And, you know, a lot of people that come for [00:06:00] acupuncture are so fascinated by it.

They decide, oh, I wanna study this. So that initial group of students were a lot of, um, connections that Sissy had in the community, and now we have students moving here from all over now, Hawaii, Alaska, Canada, overseas, so, mm-hmm. Um, yeah. Yeah. And sissy, you know, when I was doing my research for this podcast, I, I learned that you were actually thinking about going into law school, but then you had like this pretty amazing experience, uh, with a Jeffrey Un, I believe is, is how you say his name.

And he is an 88 generation Taoist priest. And I, you know, I'm, I belong to the newsletter and I get all these. Things on the, the ways that students can continue their education with him and learn, um, and further their knowledge. And I'm just so impressed. So I'm, but I'm curious from what, what did he do to change your direction?

I walked into a class [00:07:00] and the class that he was teaching was, um, on what we call the heart protector, the pericardium. And you know, there are times in your life that you sit and all of a sudden your heart is being touched so open that all of a sudden, and this was back before. We had computers in classes.

I'm sitting there with my paper and all of a sudden I've got my head down because, you know, I was just overcome. I mean, seriously, I had, I, I had tears running down my face 'cause I was hearing. Medicine not coming from the brain of, okay, this, this, this, but it, I, I, seriously, it was medicine and it was just listening to this man.

It created a opening in your heart that was unbelievable and. It was not just, I mean, it's not like hearing, [00:08:00] um, someone who's giving a scientific lecture versus someone who lives what they're doing. And so that was. The major thing for me, and I think people get touched just not by the teachings, but by how he, how he shares those from the heart.

It's, it's so different. Yeah. And as we were discussing. The difference between, um, somebody who puts needles in just the right spots, right? For AC with acupuncture and, you know, you have another person who does the same thing, same spots, and you know, you could, you could have the two protocols be the same, but then outcome is different for one of those people because their intention, their mindset can create an, an entirely different outcome.

And I feel like that's what you're talking about. [00:09:00] Absolutely. Yeah. So most people, if they know of acupuncture, they'll, they'll soon come across the word or the, the phrase traditional, uh, Chinese medicine or TCM. But there's this other thing called classical Chinese medicine, and as I understand it, it, it's sort of the historical version.

I'm confused as to sort of like what the differences are and. How the college addresses both of them, or if you'd address both of them. So we have to address both of them because the national examinations. Or primarily based on TCM. Traditional Chinese medicine happened during the time of Chairman Mao, and he came in and he brought all the schools together and said, we're gonna standardize Chinese medicine.

Now, there were still people in China [00:10:00] that didn't really, you know. Totally embrace that. And these became some of the more famous teachers. There was a Dr. Wong. There were many, many classical teachers, but in the classics, there are more meridian systems than just, when you walk into the clinic, you see the pictures of the 12 meridians.

Um, and those are called the primary meridians. And so what they did is they standardized that, but what they also did because of communism is they took out a lot of the emotional, spiritual components, even though they talked about the emotional component of like the kidney being associated with fear.

The liver being association associated with anger, frustration, resentment, though they talked about that, they did also really move away from the spiritual components of the medicine, not just the emotional [00:11:00] components. So I think from a classical Chinese medicine intention. Also what your patient, how they're connecting to the medicine is very important.

It's not just, oh, this point does this, let me put this in and it will do that. There has to be a resonance, you know, between the patient and the medicine, the patient and the practitioner. And it's, it's not just about, um. Primary meridians that maybe this moves a headache or this will help to release a urinary tract infection.

Because from a Chinese medicine perspective, uh, from a classical perspective, you are also looking at what. That me, what that illness may be bringing to a person. And so there's a, there's spiritual components to it too. And I think [00:12:00] a lot of, uh, the TCM gives very little, um, significance to that. And that's one of the big things I would say.

Interesting. You know, I, I, it makes me think about the way that, um, um, naturopathic doctors, an NDN as in Nancy Naturopathic doctor, a lot of people, um, you know, sadly don't even know those exist. Um, because they've sort of. They were kind of downgraded to obscurity about, uh, you know, a hundred years ago, I think it was.

Uh, and it seems like, uh, there's this, there has been this stripping away the art form of medicine, and what you're talking about is, again, speaks to, to the art form of it. Um, uh, Rachel, can you tell us about how Daoist philosophy. Informs, uh. The curriculum that you [00:13:00] have there, uh, but also an ap, the approach to in general health and, and, and life.

Life itself. Sure. I mean, I think the basic premise of DAOs philosophy is, you know, kind of going with the flow, right? Living in harmony and you know, as practitioners we have to be adaptable and flexible. So, you know, meeting our patients where we are, where they are, um, and adjusting and adapting our treatment for, for, for each individual patient.

I mean, that's the beauty of Chinese medicine. It's not a one size fits all. Um, we have some patients who really wanna learn about the energetic side of things and we have other patients who just are like, my knee hurts. I don't know why you're talking to me about chi. Right? So, um. You know, so that's, that's something that, um, like throughout the whole course of learning this medicine, we, we learn how to do and then we, we practice that in the clinic.

Um, in our program there's uh, different DAOs principles woven, um, [00:14:00] within it as far as like self cultivation, you know, how do we. Stay grounded. How do we, um, you know, stand as a healer for another person and some of those ways to, you know, to help students? As you know, we go through school is pretty stressful.

Standing as somebody's practitioner can be stressful. It can be a lot of pressure. People are coming to you in the, the worst day of their life sometimes, and, and they're looking to you for answers. So things like meditation and mindfulness. Um, any kind of exercise, obviously in our program, that's Qigong and students practice Qigong all the way through the program.

Um, they do reflection, uh, reflective writing, um, in a cultivation journal. They're keeping track of their own progress and, um, also, uh, in the garden. Just getting out, being with nature and seeing the cycles of nature in the garden. So just all of those things that, you know, just, um, figuring out how to, you know, be in harmony inside of yourself while there's a lot of stress going on around you, or you're [00:15:00] being put in a lot of high pressure situations.

Sometimes as a practitioner. Yeah, I just, uh, I just saw on your Instagram, the graduating class, um, I think it was in early June they graduated and, uh, they were showing the, there was like a picture of them out in there. Quote unquote natural habitat outside. And it just looks, I mean, if I were like a prospective student, I'd be like, oh my gosh, I totally would wanna be a part of, of what's going on, what's going on there?

It looks like a fun, fun group. But, uh, it seems like, you know, I, I've had various acupuncture, um. Sessions in, in my life, um, even like having had my son do acupuncture 20 years ago. And for some, some health things. And it's weird how different of a, I guess, how differently trained acupuncturist can be. Uh, for instance, I.[00:16:00] 

When he, one, one of the first people I went to for him was a traditionally trained medical doctor. Um, but they only, I think they had only went to, I don't know, it was maybe some number of certification hours. I, I don't know what the process was, but it felt very. Well, let's just say I, compared to the experience I've had at Dao Traditions is like, it's not even accu.

It was like, I don't know what this is. 'cause it was very methodical. It, it, it didn't seem to address any of, there was no checking of, um, pulse or, or tongue diagnosis or anything like you do. Um, I guess, can you speak to the, I guess, the differences in the way that your college trains. Practitioners. I, I guess versus, versus that.

Sure. Um, well, you know, I think it's for, for me personally, like yes, medical doctors can learn acupuncture. They, they don't have to go through as much [00:17:00] training as, as we do in terms of Chinese medicine training. They've had all the, the medical side of it, right. But I think when you get acupuncture from someone who didn't go through four years of Chinese medicine training, or three years, if someone went to a three year school, um.

It, it can be a little sort of mechanical this point, treats this condition, this point for this symptom, which is a very western way of, of thinking, right? You, you take this pill for this condition or you press on this point for a headache. But what we teach and what most Chinese medicine schools teach is, is so much more than that.

It's you have to learn those building blocks to take those baby steps toward being able to apply it with a patient. We're learning so many other things. As like Sissy was talking about, this is medicine of the heart, we're how do we connect with a patient. When we sit with a patient, as you know, we do an intake.

It is very in depth. It is, you know, asking questions that the patients are like, why are you asking me that? That seems very off [00:18:00] topic, but all of these details go into us, you know, creating a very individualized treatment for that pa patient's unique situation. So, you know. Yeah, so, so can I, I, I'd love to pitch, put you on the spot here, and maybe sissy, you, you're gonna be able to answer this.

I, I feel like you're, I see you're ready to, you're ready to pounce. Okay. Uh, gi hold your thought. Get ready to pounce. And I'm gonna ask you to add on this, which is to, to give like the listeners an example of them maybe coming in for something and then only through then. Proper diagnostics that you do, they find that it's actually something.

Be, be before that, that's the problem, or that's not the root cause, but you find the root cause because of the diagnosis. Alright? Mm-hmm. I'll jump in. Sure. Well, I think, you know, one thing that we know is that a symptom is just, it's really the tip of the iceberg. There's a whole underlying [00:19:00] imbalance, you know, thing that's happening and um, you know, maybe a patient comes in and says, I get headaches when I drink coffee.

So, okay, maybe that is. A true statement, but the reason is because that person's liver chi is so stagnant that when they drink coffee, it's impacting the liver in such a way that it's causing a headache. Whereas somebody else, they drink coffee, they don't get a headache. So what's going on for that individual person that's causing that symptom to appear when such and such a.

You know, um, a thing you know occurs, right? Or you're out in nature and you're in the pollen and you are having horrible allergies. That's a symptom of what's going on with your lung and liver chi. Whereas other people are out there in the same pollen and they're not reacting at all. Wonderful. Sissy, you were gonna say something here a second ago.

Well, I, I was gonna jump in. You know, our philosophy of healing. You know, in the United States [00:20:00] overall, two people can see a patient and the, and a student who's just sitting there observing gets to count that patient as a patient that they've treated. They may not put in a specific needle or you know, one of 'em may talk about the tongue and someone else may do the pulse, but it's not a congruent thing.

We didn't go into this college. To make, you know, we were already making livings. We didn't go into this college to get rich. We went into this college because we believe in the medicine. And so because of that, our students spend three fourths of their time seeing an individual patient. We only have them work as a group their very first semester because they're scared to death at that point too.

You know, they're coming into the clinic for the first time and they're really nervous. So to [00:21:00] have two of them together, but we have 'em seeing. They get to see so many more patients one-on-one. And that's how you learn is you know, the more patients that you are able to see where you are having to create the treatment plan and follow up and see what's happening.

That's how students learn. And so, you know, for us. It's not, you know, this school was never started as something, you know, to basically make all the money we could off of it. It was started to teach practitioners how to come into the medicine with their hearts so they're successful out in the world. Yeah.

Um, it, it seems like a, a totally different, um, approach and paradigm. And, and I mean, I think as a consumer of healthcare, I am, and most people are pretty frustrated with things that are not that way with, with the kind of [00:22:00] patients that, that you all have with, with your, with your patients, and, um. It's pretty, it's pretty impressive.

Uh, I did wanna make note of, I believe is this, this is still true. I saw an article in 2000, what was this last year, that you do community work with hospice patients who have done that in, um, the, at the Elizabeth Elizabeth House, house. In Hendersonville, um, and then also the unhoused community at, uh, Haywood Street Congregation.

Are, are those things you, you're still doing for your, that your interns do to serve the community? We're still doing Haywood Street. Okay. We've been doing that for years and once every week we ha we run a clinic there, a free clinic where anyone can come in, you know, first come, first serve. We did, uh, the hospice that was in Hendersonville and.

Once we had [00:23:00] problems with co uh, the transportation, we all know that sometimes it can take you an hour to get there. That ended up being something we had to stop just because of the difficulty going there, and it just wasn't working anymore for our students. So it's something we'd love to do in Asheville again, but, um, it's something that.

Instead of Elizabeth House, we are now going and doing some work down at the Veteran's Healing Farm, which is in Hendersonville, Brevard. Um, I guess not quite Brevard, wherever it is. Um. We've gone there a couple of times and they're doing some really great, great work down there with, with veterans. So we've, we went a couple of times this past school year.

We were just down there a couple last weekend, and then we have a couple of dates set up, um, coming up soon. Um. Then we also do some, uh, offsite things with the 12 Baskets Cafe through Asheville Poverty Initiative. [00:24:00] And we'll be doing some more of those, uh, this fall. So I wanna get back to, uh, you know, just the, from the students' experience coming into Dallas Traditions, how do.

They leave. I mean, it seems like a pretty profound experience when you're having them do so much more than just rote, you know, learning of, of a topic. You're having them journal, you're having them. I mean, it just seems like a profound experience. How do, how do students change as they go through the program?

I can tell you that they all talk about at the end that they're exhausted and they are, you know, we are very, um, we're not an easy program. We know that for them to be able. To treat people effectively. They also have to be able to talk to people in language they understand. So oftentimes they have to be able to [00:25:00] understand and talk with them about the pharmaceuticals they own, the treatments that they're doing or that they've done.

From their Western physicians. So you know, the whole transformation from coming into school, wanting to be an acupuncturist to four years later, being able to walk out, pass all of their national examinations and open up a clinic or things that they have put their heart and soul into and how they're transformed.

I think a lot of it depends on each one of them, because some people come in and. We look at 'em and they, they look like different people at the end of four years. It's, uh, but I think the biggest thing is, is that they came in with a dream and they are stepping closer to their dreams and, you know. The joy that they have at graduation, and it's not just the students, [00:26:00] the parents, their partners, for those of 'em who are married, they all come up to us at graduating at graduation.

Talk about how important this has been, not just for their life, but for their family's life. That, I mean we, we have parents, grandparents, so many people coming to graduation 'cause this is such a transformation from before the student came in and you know, they step out as professionals, but they step out as heart-centered professionals.

Yeah, I, I don't think it's, um, I think it's impossible to go through a program like this and to study a, a medicine with this much depth and history and not be changed by it. Um, our program is immersive and students really have to commit to focusing their energy for four years, um, of study. And some of that learning really pushes you, it pushes you out of your [00:27:00] comfort zone, um, where.

You have to be touched and palpated by classmates and needled by relative strangers, right? Everybody's a beginner. It's kind of, oh, a little nerve wracking to be needled by a beginner. Um, and you have to be in your beginner's mind too. You have to be willing to put yourself as, okay, I'm a beginner. I don't know what I'm doing.

And let go of that ego side of like, I'm, I'm good at this, right? There's, you know, there's no real natural, uh. Life skill that, that, that's gonna really, uh, make you be a better acupuncturist As far as like needling, it's not something that most of us have ever done before. Mm-hmm. Um, and. You know, you have to be willing to just let yourself make mistakes.

That's part of, part of the learning. So in the beginning it's, it's all, it's kind of about you as the student, I need to learn this. I need to get good grades. I need to pass my classes. In those first two years, you're building those skills and gathering all that information, and then you get to [00:28:00] clinic and it becomes less about you and all about the patient.

And we see that happen with our students where all of a sudden. They wanna learn, but it's so that they can help the patient. And then when they're working with the patient, they wanna learn as much as they can from that experience so they can take what they learned and help more people. So like Sissy said, when when people graduate, we're like, wow.

Like we sit there announcing people at graduation every year and think like, God, think about where they began. And there's. A lot happens in those four years. And for us, we've been doing this for so long, the four years looks like, feels like a blip. You know, like, wow, they're graduating already. And we say that to students and they're like, what do you mean already?

I feel like we've been here for forever. But um, yeah, definitely a lot, a lot changes. How many students come from Asheville versus come from other places? And then also I guess the. Um, how many stay and how many go back or like, kind of how does [00:29:00] the flow in and out of students come, uh, through your school?

I mean, some years we have like no students who are from the Asheville area, you know, um, some students are, you know, sometimes there's a few students who are from here, but a lot of our students come from elsewhere at this point. Mm-hmm. Um, and. A lot of them go back to the, where they came from before and take this back to their communities.

And, and some of them stay, there's a, there's quite a few group practices in the Western North Carolina area and, and in other places where there's multiple, uh, DT graduates working together. And that's really cool to see. That's awesome. Um, yeah, I, I really like the way that you've, you blend the support for the local community with, you know, this appeal to, I mean, national and international students because of the nature of what you guys are doing is so unique.

I think. I haven't seen any other schools do it like you do, [00:30:00] um, uh, with such comprehensive education. Um. B. So for back to back to the community aspect though, for the residents of Asheville, if you haven't tried, um, you know, for a listener who hasn't tried a session out, I think it's really accessible because like in my experience, first of all, it, it's very affordable.

I mean, I think session was like $40 and sometimes you even run. I think I got, um, over the winter, I think there was like $125, five pack or something like that. It was like a really, I'm like, I tell people about that and they, they say, they say, where do you, where's this, where can I get this? And I, I, seriously, I tell 'em, and they say, well, I'm gonna go sign up.

I say, well, you should, because like I've had personally, um, I, and I don't mean this to diminish. I, I'm never trying to diminish anybody who's. A helper of others. Right. Um, and, and, and I, I never, I don't mean this at all, so [00:31:00] I don't want anybody to feel offended. Yes. But I will say that the students that I've gotten treatment from in the student clinic were as skilled, if not more skilled than practitioners with many years of experience.

And I'm not saying that just to, for any other reason that, that, that's just my truth. So I just need to say it. So, um, you can trust that you're gonna go into the student clinic, but you're not getting. You're getting somebody who is very well prepared and there's somebody who comes in and, and checks their work.

And it made me feel very safe that like what they're doing is, is is very guided. They go and they think through what they're gonna do before they do it. They meet with their advisor and it's like really well done. I'm just so impressed. Our faculty are an amazing group of people, and again, these are all people who live here in Asheville, and we are very blessed because our faculty really [00:32:00] care about the mission of the school.

They care about helping to build a community of practitioners who can take this medicine and go back to their communities and basically bring this medicine into their own community. So part of that is because. Of the excellent faculty we have, and I, we can't say enough about them. Hmm. Agreed. Um, are, are there any, uh, collaborations that you do or the students do with other healthcare professionals, whether they be medical doctors or mental health therapists, or, first of all, we have physicians on staff.

Okay. So we have Western Medicine Physicians on half. We have chiropractors on staff. We, um. Uh, are there any other things I'm leaving out, you know, mental health professionals, these are all things that they have to be able to interact with those people to push some of their [00:33:00] wisdom when they're going to see their patients.

So, um, just even in the school, they have that, um, you know, it's, you know. These are things that we, you know, try to make sure that are part of their education. It's, it can't just be Chinese medicine doctors because we have to work in a community and we have to be able to communicate, you know, when I'm, you know, that's one of the most important things.

And you know, I think we try and tell them when you go back into your community, you have to go around and introduce yourself to the other community members. That's, you know, that's how you, that's how you create a community where you can all work together if you go out and the minute you get into a new community and reach out and, you know, say, here I am, but I'm gonna need people to afford to, you know, when they need mental [00:34:00] health issues or when they need to, chiropractic issues or massage therapy, or a Western physician, we send people to get labs.

Very often I wanna see something, you know, if, if, you know, it's just important to be able to use laboratory analysis in your clinic to help improve their treatment. So I think it's just part of it. I. And I'm usually surprised, um, you know, for, we, we actually get referrals from medical doctors to our student clinic, which I think it says a lot.

Um, and we're usually, you know, reach out like, are you, you know, this is a student clinic. Oh yeah, that's, that's what I meant to do, is refer them over there for treatment. So how does Chinese medicine differ from Western medicine? So I think, you know. How Chinese medicine is different is [00:35:00] five people can walk in with headaches and get five different treatments.

In Western medicine, you're treating a symptom, but you're not treating a patient who has a symptom. Every patient gets the same pharmaceutical and there's a dosage. Okay? But someone could come in with a headache and after I take their pulses, I could see, oh, there's a stomach imbalance that's creating this.

Or I could say there's an imbalance in the gallbladder. Or there's an imbalance in the UNA bladder, and the only way you find these things out is by taking a complete history, and that means spending anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour finding out more about the person. And it's not just the symptom, the symptom is the view of the, is part of the imbalance [00:36:00] and where's the balance that, the imbalance that's create in that symptom.

So from, you know, it's, it's a very different thing. What headache doesn't really mean anything in Chinese medicine. Oh, you have pain, but I wanna know what does that pain feel like? What aggravates that pain? What makes that pain better? When you know how, when you're having this pain, what else is going on in your body?

If you are having a headache and you also start having loose stews at the same time, you know, it's, it's, it's not symptom based. If we can track it back, we can resolve symptoms. But the biggest thing is, you know, your headache is this much of your health. What, where's, what do we need to do to get you healthy [00:37:00] overall?

Uh, that's perfect. That, that explains it really, really well. Um, I, I have two observations. Uh, the first is Chinese medicine has been doing. Personalized medicine for thousands of years, whereas we just now, you know, you, you hear personalized medicine is a, is a trending word in allopath in the allopathic world.

Right? Um, and I mean, they're talking about at the genetic level, but essentially what you're doing is personalized medicine and it's always been that way. Uh, secondly, I, in my experience, the, even the more profound. Thing about what you just said for me is that I get to learn about myself when the practitioner tells me that they've detected, you know, or they're saying, um, you know, weak, you have weak qi in the, in the liver.

And we start talking about experientially what's, you know, life stuff, like, what's going on. I might be able to, it doesn't [00:38:00] happen every time, but I've, I've had times where I've now learned some things. Oh. When I wake up and I turn my phone on right off the bat, that's affecting my qi in this way. You know, or, um, when I do anything, it doesn't matter what you name it, there's, you can start to learn some of these patterns and that becomes, I think, really important for.

Somebody preventative wise, because now you're really doing prevention. You're actually getting at the root of things. I think that's a big power that Chinese medicine has and that I've observed. Um, what do you say to somebody being, you know, who's curious about becoming an acupuncturist or herbalist today?

Like what would you say to them thinking about your school, Rachel? Um, yeah. For me, I would say, you know, really explore all the programs out there because, you know, ev every school teaches what ACOM or accreditor says we have to teach right? This, this, this core bunch of [00:39:00] classes and these core competencies you have to accomplish to graduate.

Um, but every school has its own special flavor, right? Some schools don't teach herbs. It's acupuncture only. Some people, you know, some schools are a five element based school as opposed to a eight principal, um, TCM type school. And you really have to just get a feel for the location, the student body, you know, the faculty, and really make sure that you feel at home there because it's, it is a big commitment.

It is a big commitment of time. Um. And energy and, and money and, um, you wanna, you wanna have it be a, a good fit so you feel like you're in the right place, um, for, for all of that time. And you're not, um, kind of questioning, why am I doing this? You know, it's most people, you find the right school and you're just, you're in it.

You, you're just hungry to learn more and you just kind of, um. I don't know. I just wanna get the, the most out of it without [00:40:00] feeling like I'm not really sure about this. That's not a good feeling. Hmm, Hmm. Those are, those are wise words. Um, I just wanted to say thank you so much for the work that you're doing, um, in the community and the support that, that the heart that is clearly, uh, felt, um, by everyone who.

Around both of you. Uh, I really personally appreciate the experiences of that I've had, and so I just wanted to say thank you for that. Um, and it's really pretty awesome. Well, thanks. You know, the one thing that I tell people a lot of times, and I, I've told this to all of my children. I cannot imagine having had a better life, seriously moving to Asheville.

You know, right out of acupuncture college. I went to acupuncture college in Santa Fe and moving here [00:41:00] was, you know, such a blessing that I had no idea. But I also, I mean, I didn't know any acupuncturist when I started acupuncturist school. I just. Did it. And, you know, didn't really know what, didn't know what kind of a path it was taking me on.

And, um, I can't imagine a life where I get to help people. And, you know, I run into people on the street sometimes and they'll say, oh, you help my headaches 30 years ago. I've never had him since then. I mean, it's just, I don't, I just don't think there's, it's, it's. I've had a wonderful life. I mean, I'm in my mid seventies and you know, I still love what I do.

I still love seeing patients and I'm. Very excited about seeing people come in and walk out and then hearing about how good they're doing in the profession. Uh, we have a [00:42:00] student that moved to do 'em, and my sister called me last night saying how much better she was feeling because she's been seeing this woman now for six weeks, one time a week, and you know.

It's like, and you know, she's just seeing one of our students who is now in the DU area. So we love watching these students go out and you want 'em to populate the whole United States, send them out and, uh, have them do good. That's, uh, that's, that's. That's pretty much the thing. Uh, I know there's some summer I saw some on, on uh, Instagram, also some summer packages I think that are gonna be running through August, which is this podcast will be released in August.

So I think they should, people might be able to take advantage of, of those. And then also, uh, I'll let you talk about them, but also the, um, you have a fall 2025 enrollment coming up and it's still open for the masters and doctoral programs. I'll just give you a second [00:43:00] to sort of. Um, plug those two things.

Sure. Um, our doctoral professional track actually starts classes, uh, in early July that is open to people who graduated from Master of Acupuncture and herbal medicine programs. Uh, we are currently in the process of launching a doctor of acupuncture programs. So for people who did not study herbs in their previous training to come back to earn their doctorate will, will be an option.

Um, and the master's program of new students begin in early August. Uh, we have an introductory week for them to do. Um, we have some fun classes in that week, and then, um, students can still enroll up until our fall start date, which is, uh, around the 20th of August. Sorry, I don't have the date in front of me.

Um, um, and currently our Certificate of Herbal Medicine program is running. Those students are about to start their last eight month term. So we'll be having our herbal medicine clinic, which is, uh, free, uh, herbal consultations once a month, um, with our, uh, clinical [00:44:00] interns that are in that program who are licensed acupuncturists who return back to school to learn herbal medicine, to, um, enhance their practice.

This. Hmm. Wonderful. Wonderful. Well, thank you both for, for being on, uh, this show today. I really appreciate your time. Okay. Thank you so much for having us.

If today's conversation sparked your curiosity about Chinese medicine or you're considering a healing path of your own, visit DAOs traditions.edu. To learn more about their programs, clinics, and community offerings, you can also experience the power of student led care at their teaching clinic, which is open to the public, and a great entry point for affordable holistic treatment right here in Asheville.

And if you know someone who might make a great guest for The Wellness in Asheville Podcast or a story worth spotlighting, please reach out 

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