3 - Sanctuaries of Consciousness: with Dr. Haydn & Terry Hasty, Founders of Wellspring Wellness Center

Sanctuaries of Consciousness: with Dr. Haydn & Terry Hasty, Founders of Wellspring Wellness Center

In this episode of the Wellness in Asheville podcast, we delve into the essence of the consciousness movement with Hayden and Terry Hasty, founders of Wellspring Wellness Center. Established in 2016, Wellspring fosters an environment of holistic healing with services like acupuncture, massage, yoga, and reiki. 

Hayden and Terry share their spiritual journey and discuss their latest initiative, Truth Springing, which aims to nurture inner truth and creative transformative gatherings. 

They discuss the upcoming Truth Spring Conference scheduled for September, which focuses on deep spiritual exploration. The conversation covers their personal experiences, the philosophical underpinnings of consciousness, and how personal transformation can influence global change.

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Key Takeaway:

Consciousness as Core to Wellness – Hayden and Terry Hasty emphasize that true wellness is not merely physical but emerges from the mind and level of consciousness, with the outer world being a manifestation of the inner state.

Existence vs. Experience – They distinguish between existence (the truth of who you are) and experience (external events), stating that experiences can only be fully understood when grounded in the awareness of existence.

The Role of Relationships in Growth – In both personal and professional partnerships, they highlight the importance of mutual respect, freedom from expectations, and seeing one’s partner “new each day” to maintain deep connection over decades.

Truth Springing and Soul Evolution – Their initiative, Truth Springing, focuses on spiritual realization as a means to accelerate personal and collective growth, with the belief that the soul evolves only through physical life experiences.

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TimeStamps:
00:00 – 02:15 | Introduction & Background

02:15 – 08:30 | Consciousness & Wellness

08:30 – 20:00 | Inner vs. Outer Worlds & Facing Hardship

20:00 – 38:00 | Relationships & Conscious Partnership

38:00 – 59:00 | Truth Springing & The Soul’s Evolution

59:00 – 1:08:00 | The Truth Spring Conference

1:08:00 – End | Closing Reflections

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Episode Links:

• Wellspring Wellness Center: Website | Instagram
• The Becoming You Conference Sep 11-14 Website
• A Course in Miracles – mentioned as an influence or source within the content. Website
• David Hawkins – likely referring to Dr. David R. Hawkins, author of works such as Power vs. Force. Website
• Michael Singer – known for The Untethered Soul and The Surrender Experiment. Website
• Wellness Networking Meetup Group (for health+wellness experts)
• Join Our Newsletter

The Wellness in Asheville podcast is produced by Be Well Asheville, your local news source covering health + wellness news + events in Asheville. Get the latest at bewellasheville.com or follow @bewellasheville.

Transcript

Wellspring Wellness Center

Alright, so today we step into the heart of Asheville's Consciousness Movement at Wellspring Wellness Center, founded in 2016 by Hayden and Terry Hasty and built upon their MindSpring consulting legacy that began all the way back in 1994. , 

wellspring is a sanctuary for seekers and healers of all kinds, offering acupuncture, massage, yoga, reiki, and of course, tons more. Hayden and Terry are also the soulful creators of truth Springing launched [00:01:00] in 2020 to nurture Inner Truth and Creative Transformative gatherings. This September, they'll host The Truth.

Spring Conference, a multi-day immersion designed for both seasoned spiritual explorers and those just beginning their journey from our first Ramen fueled conversations at IDOs to co-hosting my Wellness in Asheville networking event. Their warmth, wisdom, and general.

Genuine connection have made them cherished friends. And by the way, I just have to say what I love about Hayden and Terry is when I first met them, it felt like I've known these guys forever. And I feel like that's pretty much anybody who meets them would say that.

It's not very often that you meet people. That have their own spiritual journey and their own spiritual growth as their top priority, and then who embody that just in their ways of being. And so I've really come to appreciate both of them. I. Consider them both friends. I know that they consider me their friend, [00:02:00] and I even have a decent amount in common with Hayden, so really excited to bring them on.

Let's, uh, let's dive in with the mindful heart-centered duo from Wellspring Wellness Center, Hayden and Terry Hasty.

 Welcome, Hayden and Terry to the Wellness in Asheville podcast. Excited to talk about all things consciousness and more today. How are you guys both doing today? Doing great. Great. How are you? Thanks so much. Thanks for having us. Yeah, absolutely. I Well, it's, it's been, it's been great. You know, we had our, our little lunch meeting last week and had some great ramen and some great discussion, and it became really clear to me after talking to you both that your, your real passion is, is all around consciousness.

So, in doing my research and how I was gonna construct today's, uh, talk, I thought, man, let's, let's really get in more into an extension of that conversation we had. Yeah, it picks up, um, [00:03:00] kind of on the tail end of all of our work where, you know, uh, back in the day. 15, 20 years ago, we, we were not aware of this element of consciousness.

So when we approached wellness, you know, it came in through the traditional framework of what I call the triangle or MINDBODY motion. But that began to shift and change completely about 15 years ago, 14 years ago. And moving really from a linear, um, way of looking at wellness. Like we often think of, well, we're babies then, we're children, then we're young adults, then we're middle aged adults and we're old adults and we die.

And we look at this linear way, which feels kind of, um, stagnant and inevitable. But when you add consciousness, which is more sick, it is cyclical. It's more natural like seasons. Uh, we even have [00:04:00] a part of our work called Seasons of the Soul, where we look at creation. There's a beginning to everything.

There's a preservation of everything. It lasts for a period of time, including our life. And there's a destruction, or another way to look at that is disillusion, but what always follows destruction is creation again. And we've all had those times in our life. It's not a one and done. And that's where consciousness comes in, is how, how can I use not only my experiences, which we've become pretty good at doing, but my understanding of the higher truth of how things really work and why things are, how they are to guide my life in a much more powerful.

And, um, well see. That's, that's, that's really the, the, that's the essence of the problem, uh, even in terms of, of, of death, in terms of life and death of wellness and illness. The, the problem is it's focused on, as you just said, [00:05:00] experience, but what about existence? I mean, until the issue of existence is addressed, at least from my point of view, it's impossible to accurately describe and discuss the experiences.

But that's, that's what most of our wellness, uh, concepts are based on. You mean between the two of those experience and existence, which, which one of those two comes first existence? Exactly. So you're actually not confused. Good. I'm glad someone thinks, thinks that. So once you, once you get that straight, then experiences can only be really understood if you get the existence piece down.

So now, if I, excuse me, if I, uh, gave you a loaded question and said, alright, now tell me about [00:06:00] your existence. Notice what happens when you ask someone that question? If you ask someone that question, what, what would their response be? Mm. Like, tell me about your existence. Yes. Mm. Well, it's a i i if it hits me in a way where I go much deeper, uh, into myself, because experience, I guess in my understanding of it, is really about external things that happen to seem to happen to me.

Uh, my experience, you know, when you ask somebody what is your experience of something, they say, well, I felt this way because of that. Uh, but where, where we talk about existence, it really hearkens to the thing be the thing that is aware of, you know, before it's one level deeper. It's the thing that's aware of the experience that can become aware of these things happening.

Something like that. And, and yes, uh, well, I think it's more than something like that. It's very close to it because consciousness. [00:07:00] Really, to a very large extent dictates the experience the, the outer world or unconsciousness dictates the experience, could say the unconsciousness. I if we think, if we go back and make sure that we connect, for example, the issue of wellness.

Now again, we, we didn't start off at this point when we first started the business in 1995. We, we were not aware of this, but wellness is not a byproduct of the body. Wellness is a byproduct of the mind, as your mind is. So will your future be as the level of consciousness is. So does it dictate the outer experiences and um, and the kind of experiences that the individual draws to themselves because.

Uh, it's, [00:08:00] it's fairly magnetic in that way. Um, and looking at it, uh, and I loved what you said about having to go deeper and it's gonna be about you. It's not gonna be about anything happening on the outside as you go deeper into the center, or you could say into, as far as one could go inside of oneself to to, to speak to that.

What you find is that the outer is just a manifestation of the enemy. So what we're really experiencing, where the mind thinks that what we're experiencing in the physical body is something going on out here in the outer world. It's actually not. What it is experiencing is what's going on in the inner world.

And the outer is really just a physical manifestation of the inner, and that is also true of the body. The body is just a physical [00:09:00] manifestation of that inner. Did I? Mm-hmm. Did that make sense? Travis? Did. Did you understand what I said? I think so. Um, I, I think the way I understand that is that I, I think there's a saying, you know, what's within is without, and what's without is within.

And it basically allows you to look at things as more of like a, a fractal or a reflection of, of something else. So when I look out into the world and I see a world that I, that maybe I don't like or I'm uncomfortable with, or, uh, that I want to change, then it's possible that there's something in me that I should be looking at.

Is the world is an outcome of us as individuals. The world in and of itself's not real, except that it's, um, us as a collective. Well, listen, I I, each of us individually, I wanna be careful here. The world is real, but what you think about the world. It's not, yeah, but it's, that's your stuff, [00:10:00] stuff. It's just like a, a team is a team.

Yes. But it's made up of individuals. A family is a family, but it's made up of the individuals. And the same if we expand it out. So if we can look out there, Travis, and say, there are things I don't like, but I have no idea how to affect them or change them in the world, but in here, inside of me, I can make that change.

And in that way, influence and affect the collective. Let me ask you something. So if I'm a li, if I'm a listener and I'm hearing you guys, um, say this and I am dealing with some real, uh, challenging stuff. I've got, maybe I've got somebody who's very sick and they're, uh, and I'm, I don't personally have, but somebody maybe and they're not doing very well, and I'm not sure how long, you know, they might make it or, or, um, what, what's gonna be the outcome of.

Of what's going on with the person. I love. How does, how do you help [00:11:00] somebody see that in a positive way? Um, I, I, I think it's really important and, and I'm speaking in terms of consciousness, and I want to go back to a key and central vital word that you use, which is learning to see, to see beyond the physical, to see beyond the experience, to understand at a far deeper level what is taking place.

Now, with that in mind of this need to learn, to be able to see, which is what consciousness is about, we, it's important to understand that we all live in two different worlds simultaneously. We live in the physical, what I sometimes refer to as the physical horizontal, it's measurable. It is, um, it's emotional, it's full [00:12:00] of sensations.

Um, and it, and it's very, very linear. The other world in which we live is non-physical. It is a spiritual dimension. We are all spiritual beings in a physical body, but we're not in touch with that world. For the most part. Now, we believe that's what's taking place today, but that people are getting more in touch with.

Yes, and waking up to right this, this other part of ourselves. But both those worlds exist simultaneously. So in terms of dealing with a hardship like that, and everybody has experienced crippling loss. Some way, whether it was a loss of loved one, the loss of financial security, the loss of a job, the, the loss of a relationship, we're all driven [00:13:00] towards that, that inner place inside where it's the only place that we can go to try to find any relief.

So if all we know is horizontal physical, um, we're, we're not gonna do very well with those difficult circumstances. We will go through the grinding and the, the, just the constant bombardment of the everyday pressure. That it exerts on us, that is constantly forcing us to the inner, to, to the inside, and until we gain, uh, so you'll notice what I, I'm avoiding trying to give you an exact answer.

Um, I would love to talk about that, but I also wanna be real sensitive to a, a question like that because it's really difficult to deal with. However, consciousness allows you to see [00:14:00] something else besides what is taking place physically. And, and that is where, uh, that is the source of peace, that consciousness is, is, is the source of harmony and acceptance and, and true understanding because every other individual is operating at their soul level and we're not in charge of that.

And sometimes, you know, the soul decides to leave. Okay, so, well, I guess in your definition then, what is consciousness? Alright, let's, let's put it in a somewhat of a paradigm that anybody could look at. Uh, we could, uh, you can see it as a three step process of what consciousness is and, and its relationship to our life.

So let's start off with a definition, but we've gotta get away from [00:15:00] the esoteric and the universal. We've gotta get it down to the individual level. Otherwise it, you know, there would be no point in ever discussing it. Consciousness is the truth of who and what you really are. That's working its way out through your ignorance, ignorance of that truth of who and what you really are.

Your existence. Mm-hmm. You could say to connect that back to what we were talking, just as a quick aside, not to interrupt your trilogy. No, no, that's fine. That's alright. Um, we'll ask people and I've been, um, brought up certainly in this, um, mentality that I am the spark of the divine within. And if I ask someone who's struggling with any of the, um, things that we struggle with as human beings, I, I will ask, do you believe or do you think you are the spark of the divine?

Are you made in the image of the divine? And invariably the person says yes, even an atheist, she told me I'm an [00:16:00] atheist, but I do believe that I am made of all that is. Hmm. So it was an interesting conversation, but as soon as they say, or a human being says, I do believe I'm made in the image of the divine.

Almost always the next sentence is, but I'm so flawed in so many ways, but I'm so screwed up or I don't know how to deal with if we really are, if we really do experience ourselves. At the level of existence as being that of the divine, whatever the person's definition of that is. Why would we feel so much anxiety and self-doubt and, um, angst about things?

And so there's kind of the disconnect of living in two worlds that we do know that there's a higher part, but we tend to ascribe to the other. Well, we, we can come back to the, the trilogy, which is important. It helps frame the conversation up. But let's go back to something you said. I, I don't care what it is.

I mean, I realize this is [00:17:00] my perception. It's my opinion doesn't really mean anything. But this is, I've never seen anything not fit what I'm getting ready to say. And what I'm saying is that I don't care what the upset is. If you go down that rabbit hole, you will find that the source of all upset. Is your own negative ground of being?

I, I don't care what the situation is. If you become afraid, if you become enraged, the source of it is that negative ground of being inside. It's the trigger might be something outside, but the source of it is in here. And that is the ignorance, that it's the disconnect. That's the unconsciousness that's playing out inside of each one of us.

Yeah, I, I like that. And I was just thinking what came to my mind was, could there be a, could there be an upset if I knew I was part [00:18:00] of everything? If I, if I knew I was literally not the small self, that I am a little wave in the ocean. If I knew I was the ocean, how could I possibly have any upset if I really knew it?

Um, because you'd be saying that, that this upset applies to all of existence. My upset, the thing that happened to me. This, this, this self has just happened to all of existence. And so we should be upset about it. It should be, it's a problem. My spiritual understanding is that the root of a lot of our issues are in the belief that we're separate from the things that we, that we see.

Duality is the, is the source of all, um, uh, difficulty in the world because we're not separate. Well con connected back to there are those two different worlds. It's the separation between existence and experience, uh, and consciousness. What unconsciousness is, [00:19:00] is the separation of your identity from who you think you are to who you really are, and therein lies all of our suffering and pain.

So the answer to your question, but let's keep it real. The answer to your question is, would I ever experience an upset? And the answer is no. However, simultaneously in the world of the triangle of mind, body motion versus the world of the square, it's the triangle plus spirituality. Or you could say, uh, consciousness.

We experience sadness, we experience grief, and these are very important aspects to learn to master because everyday life in the horizontal. Um, I said something today, Terry and I were going to a meeting and I think I was expressing some frustration about something and she said, Hayden, everything changes and [00:20:00] everything does, and one day I will not be here.

Uh, one day Terry will not be here. Everything is on its way out the door. So the question goes back again. What is the purpose of the existence itself? Which is far more than what we've been taught and far more than what we know? Well, and the mind is predicated on surviving. Even though we know we're not going to, you are sharing that you knew it 10 years old.

Like, Hey, why is nobody talking about this? That's true. Nobody makes it outta here alive, should it? Shouldn't we be concerned is, no, it feels urgent. We got a real check out of that. Yeah, that was, yeah. Hey, it's. Anybody knows that everything does, but that's the, that's the mind. But at existence, it's, wow.

What's the, um, what's the evolutionary process that's happening this 80 years or however long [00:21:00] a person lives is a, just such a tiny speck, you know, in the big picture. And if we can start to see things in a more circular way, not only our daily life, like, all right, what is this leading to? How did I participate in this even happening?

And we might think it was done to us, like you said earlier, but if we, um, and one of our teachers shared that with us. We were, Hayden and I were frustrated about something that was going on at work, and Robert just sat there and just very relaxed. He said, well, what did you do to make her treat you that way?

He wasn't being, you know, cryptic or sarcastic. It was a genuine question. And if we, if we approach things like that, what was my part in this, sometimes of course things happen. Mm-hmm. You know, and I'm not gonna say everything, it's not like blaming people, uh, for things that happen in their lives, but there, in our everyday life, there are plenty of opportunities for us to look at and say, what was my part in this?[00:22:00] 

I had recently coached my daughter on, uh, on, we're talking about relationships and, and I said one of, I think the strongest indicator of a relationship that is going to be positive and that could last and be functional and healthy and loving over the course of time is that exact, very thing is how does that person take ownership of their part?

And when it's tense, when it's tough. I mean, it doesn't have to be right in the moment, but do they come back and, and, and come and say, you know what, I, I thought about it and what I, what I said to you. Um, yeah, that was, that was me. That was, that was my story about you. That was incorrect. And it came out sideways.

And I apologize and please forgive me for that. Like, that a person can do that has potential. They actually have power, but it's, but it's enclosed. Uh, that's, uh, here's a, I i, [00:23:00] I want to go back to that trilogy because it, it does provide a really good mm-hmm. Framework for understanding this conversation.

But let me give you a really good image of, of what we are speaking about. And in the image is this, if you go to, for example, the big bank theory, and all of a sudden the universe is created. All over the universe. What we began to see, what we can see in our galaxy now, is that there is a center, and out of that center emerges a plane.

And the work that we do in consciousness, we frequently state that if it's true about the universe, it's true about you. And it's because those sources are, we're not separate from that. So notice that when the infinite, uh, whether you call it God, the divine of the [00:24:00] transcendent, a million different words that have been used through time to describe that when it comes into being, when the infinite is now enclosed in the finite, or you could say in the triangle, in other words, in your physical body.

Once you take birth, the center is born. And out of that center emerges your everyday life, or other words? The plane. Now the plane can't exist without the center, and the center has no need to exist without a plane. But when the center is off kilter. When the center is, has taken on, has adopted abnormal behaviors, concepts, irrational beliefs, emotional defense patterns, I could go on forever and ever.

Then that plane is going to be disturbed in some way [00:25:00] off filter, off kilter now off, well, I, it's worse than off kilter and we've all experienced that. So once that happens, of course, then most cases the individual will seek relief through trying to resolve the plane. We gotta figure out how to get this plane to stop getting upset all the, all the time and, and get my everyday life to calm down.

But see, it can't calm down until the center is addressed. And that is the invisible world. That is the nonphysical spiritual world. The other dimens. That is really driving and creating the outcomes in our life. I think that's why so many people experience. Was that okay? Yes. Did I say that? Okay. It made me think of, um, the feeling of inertia that so many people experience or the feeling of being stuck.

I had this image come up last week when I was writing something about a carousel. You can be on the prettiest horse [00:26:00] on the whole merry-go-round, but it's not going anywhere. It's going up and down and, and around in circles, but mm-hmm. You drive that Porsche, uh, round and round and round. It's this feeling of inertia because we're trying to, um, break through or we're trying to heal or we're trying to, um, expand through our physical life, through our mind, body emotions without accessing the spiritual or the invisible or the higher self.

And that's why we just keep like a dog chasing its tail. Feeling this sense of stuckness or, or of inertia. And that's where consciousness really can break open, can break, can the carousel horse can get off of the circling tracks, you know, and go out in the countryside because, um, we're not bound anymore by that linear, um, physical, temporary dynamic of mind, body and emotions, because that's what, you know, [00:27:00] experiences, not wellness.

The other spiritual can't be anything, but, well, w when we have thoughts, the way I experience consciousness, or the way I understand it, it is understand, it is thoughts, uh, seem to pop like popcorn into the mind. And if you ask somebody, can you control your own thoughts, um, they would, a lot of people would say, yeah, I think I can.

'cause look, I can, I can walk over the, the room, the room there. I'm gonna go, I'm gonna plan to do that. And I would say to you. How did you, how did you construct that thought though? You, did you do it or did it pop, pop and happen to you? And I, I'm not sure how this dynamic works, but I've been curious, and we talked about it during lunch, is where do these thoughts come from and can we influence the kinds and qualities of thoughts that we have?

In my experiences, uh, the only thing I can think about it is when, when I put myself around, let's say [00:28:00] people that love me or a place that brings awe, you know, like the Grand Canyon, um, the kinds of thoughts that pop, well, again, I don't feel like I'm in control, but the quality and kinds are different than if I were finding myself in a less desirable context.

Does that make any sense? What do you think of that? Yes. You've just got one more step to take. Perfect. Let us bring it on. Okay. Notice that you can examine the thought ad nauseum. You'll never find what you're looking for neither will you find the source of it, because it is, it, it really does have a lot to do with the chemical brain, which, you know, um, but I'm not gonna spend any time there.

Now you said something, the, the way that I say this, I hope I don't come across, um, in a negative way. If, if, if [00:29:00] 10 people tell me that they meditate, what my experience has taught me is that eight of them are lying. And the reason why is because it is so difficult. Mm-hmm. It is so hard to gain and earn what I refer to as meditation strength.

That is the ability to sit down and calm the mind and begin to govern those thoughts, not through engaging in them or examining them by, but by looking at it through the other world. Now, this is, uh, for example, to me, uh, consciousness is the clarifier of the cloudy mind. And there's a, a phrase that I used, uh, a long time ago.

I refer to it as feeding the lions. It's like waking up at three o'clock in the morning. It happened [00:30:00] to me this morning at four o'clock. And where you wake up and you're bombarded with it can be, uh, it can come out of nowhere. A thought of fear, a thought of worry, a thought of regret, uh, a thought of self condemnation, whatever it may be.

Yeah. And very few people will develop a system over the course of their life to address those lions that are feeding on you because of, uh, and I don't mean you, I mean all of us, our inability to be able to control that. So, you know, four o'clock this morning, uh, it happened to me and, uh, and I tried to take my own advice and I went in and did my meditation thing and you know, and then I was fine.

I was okay. But what I'm saying is this, that's not the thought stuff, is not the issue. The [00:31:00] issue is the lack of realization. That's what causes our pain and suffering, and that takes us back to our existence. That takes us back to that which is ingrained in us at birth, a secret reality literally of who and what we really are, of what we're doing here, of why we're here that we are not in touch with.

But that's, that's the evolutionary process. So if, if I put that trilogy, trilogy in right now, it's very simple. Consciousness is the truth of who and what you are. That's working its way out, and it is working its way out through your ignorance. Evolution is the movement of that consciousness from ignorance to truth and spiritual realization is the mechanism.

By which it accelerates that [00:32:00] process. Okay, so I used to read a man by the name of David Hawkins. He wrote a couple books, the, I think it was Power versus Force, and, uh, the Eye of the Eye, and there were some other things. And this guy was a self-proclaimed, awakened, uh, man out. And I think he was from Sedona.

Um, he's no longer with us, but he, one of the, his, his greatest contributions is he created this ggl, this, this scale of consciousness. And he used muscle testing and some other things. And I know this we're, it's definitely in the WOOWOO category, which is fine. I think we should, we should go there 'cause we can, um, uh, is that, you know, on the scale of one to 1000, uh, one being.

I don't know, consciousness at the level of a bacteria and a thousand say Jesus Christ or the Buddha. Uh, the avatars. Uh, he, he also said [00:33:00] in one of his books that. That humanity's consciousness, despite what people might think is increasing over the course of time. And he had this threshold of, I don't know, maybe 200 or something like that, and it was like, uh, he called it the level of trust where he, he felt that humanity was just crossing that threshold somewhere in the eighties.

I think where it just had become, as a global consciousness could even be trusted before that. In general, it was a consciousness that could not be. Uh, he said one other interesting thing and then I'm, I'll turn it over to you, which is that the only time that he noted that there was ever a downturn in consciousness, it was never because of war, which you might think he said that he believed that the media.

And this might raise some eyebrows, but he said, it's not me. He said the media dropped consciousness maybe by three [00:34:00] points or something like that, which on a scale of evolutionary timeframe in humanity's consciousness would be a lot. It'd be a lot. But beyond that, it's increasing over the course of time.

So I'm curious, with everything going on today, and I know that was long-winded, but I felt it was important to set the stage for that. With everything going on today, do you guys believe consciousness is increasing or decreasing and why? It's the very cause of the collapse. It's the very cause of the accelerated destruction that we are experiencing.

Now. If you, if you only see it from that one world, of course, then we should all be terrified. The lens through which the other is operating, what we are witness to is a new birth. The old is coming to an end. Now, I'm not one of those people that I don't know how long that's gonna [00:35:00] take. I do know it's not gonna be immediate, but this upset is precisely the movement of consciousness from its older form, which is self-awareness to the next transition in humanity's growth, which is consciousness.

The problem is, it's, it's this wonderful, uh, quote babindo that I enjoy so much, and it's very simple when he says, F. See what none yet understands. Um, God shall grow up while the wise men talk and sleep. Man shall not know the hour until it's coming. Belief shall not be until the work is done. So we're all doing the work right now, but we don't understand why we don't.

Even in our own individual lives, we've all had to experience something that we thought was [00:36:00] catastrophic, unjust, you know, traumatic and it, and they are. Those things at times happens only to some years later. We look back and say, well, actually, as a result of that, you know, this. Was created this bloomed, this was an opportunity I would not have had if that hadn't happened.

So it's, it's really kind of the same thing that we can't see what's happening if we're only in the physical. But I do think the evolution of us, it's, there is a waking up. And this isn't just Hayden's in my opinion, this is lots of sources, including one of our colleagues and friends who's teaching at the conference with us.

He's Ukrainian and he said there's an awakening. People are waking up all over the world. And I think what we're waking up to is, it's not about me, the individual, and you mentioned this before, Travis, exclusively, it's about us as a collective and how can we, um, move forward together? How can we, um, [00:37:00] collaborate more?

Wisely and consciously, because we do have self-awareness, we do understand from experience what will work and what won't work, so we can move into this higher, um, range of consciousness. And we actually, we love that book, power versus Force in the model. We have, um, played with that and, and laid that over Ron Smother man's Model of Integrity and it's really powerful, um, lens through which to view individual, but also human development of moving higher and higher to abundance and farther from this fear-based limitation.

Well see, I'm not, I'm not even gonna go that far to say that, you know, it's about figuring out how we. Certainly the issue of unification and unity and equanimity in, in all people, regardless of who they are, what color they are, et cetera. And it's hard to believe we're still having to talk about this in 2025, but, [00:38:00] but it has to come up in the conversation.

I don't even go so far as to highlight that until the individual changes.

 Until the individual changes, the world can't change. And so the, the singular focus that I have, at least I love talking about the other stuff, but when it comes down to working, you know, uh, with folks and, and in these processes, it is about individual transformation. That's all you have to do. Then the plane stabilizes, then the center builds.

Its true strength. The only true strength in this world is inner strength, because everything else will fail you. And, and, and you, you don't have to be my age to know that everybody's experienced that, uh, the relationship that you thought, you know, was gonna last forever. It didn't, uh, the car that [00:39:00] you, you know.

Spent your life savings on, you know, the cat urinates in it. Two days after you buy it, you can't get the smell out such as the path of the everyday horizontal physical life. It is only through the other that, that daily horizontal physical life stabilizer. Well, let me, so the question is how you know how to do that.

Let me, uh, ask you then, as a way to put this into practice. I am a big, uh, follower of Gary Zov and he talks about spiritual relationships. And I've actually done a lot of work around this. And in my past relationships, uh, my ex-wife is my best friend and, you know, we, we have a spiritual relationship and it's, it's based on, um, you know, seeing each other in.

The best possible, most loving way because we know, [00:40:00] you know who the other is. We're not just the, the ex, which is such a horrible Right. You know, there, there's gotta be a better name for it than that. But that's all, all all we have, right? Uh, so we call each other spiritual partners. What, how does your work if, for you two, uh, you and Terry, I'm curious how it shows up for you.

How do you implement, I know I'm putting you guys on the spot here. We didn't talk about this, but I'm just curious how, how you use your own work in your personal relationship with each other, if you don't mind me asking. No, it's actually been a really important part of our work and we've worked together my whole adult life, but we've had our business together for 30 years.

And one of the interesting things, Travis, is people that will be in workshops with us, and I hope this isn't too personal to share, but sometimes oftentimes they'll. I'm not sure I know what this was about or I, you know, I'm, I'm working on this part of the [00:41:00] content, but what I know I got out of it is that it's possible to have a relationship with a partner that is based on love and mutual respect.

Mm-hmm. And I think that that is, I, I've often said I'm the luckiest person in the world. I always have been, but because I, I live with Hayden and I get to work with him at this level, it definitely, um, has made our relationship, and maybe it's vice versa, the relationship makes the work better, but the work makes the relationship better because it's, it's like you said, to see one another, not through the lens of wife or husband.

But as collaborators on this journey together mm-hmm. It's, uh, um, this happened to me when I was really young. Uh, I met my first teacher when I was 27 years old. I mean, the timing just couldn't have been better. And I would work with him for 10 years. [00:42:00] And one of the things that came out of that was I was in a, a, a bad marriage at the time.

Terry and I were not together. And I, I'll never forget what he said to me. Uh, one time we were talking, he said, are you in a relationship? I said, yes. He said, no, you're not. I said, what do you mean? I said, I'm married. He said, I didn't ask you if you were married. I asked you, are you in a relationship? And so it finally came down to this and he looked at me.

He said, the way you know that you're in a real relationship is that you have the option not to be in it. Hmm. And it froze me. I, I had no understanding at that time of what he was talking about. Now, you fast forward, like I've said this to Terry many times. I mean it, I hope that I never have to experience it, but I've said it many, many times, which is I've [00:43:00] said to Terry, you know, if you ever fall in love with somebody else, I'll help you because I love watching you be happy.

And I'll never forget the first time I said that to her, and she looked me dead in the eye and she said. Do I get the boat? I said, hell no, you don't get the boat, you don't get my stuff. Oh, wow. You can be with who you wanna be with, but you're not hauling the boat off. Yeah. And, and I mean that of, of creating, um, a place inside of yourself that is, it's never, you're never always there.

And anybody who knows, Terry and I, and this is absolutely true, anybody who knows us knows that she is more emotionally stable than I am because I am. I like this kind of edge in me, this little bit that is constantly trying to expand the boundaries and, [00:44:00] uh, and, and it can get aggravated from time to time.

But, but that's Terry and that's my path and what we would learn together. Uh, is, it's not about needing anything from anybody. Anybody who's ever been in a relationship, particularly a failed one, can look back and be absolutely 100% aware that expectations ruin relationships. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That that's what they do.

So if we can move out of expectation, where do we move to? We move towards the wholeness and completion of our own being that we are sharing with that other person. And that's the whole point of, of a relationship, is to share your whole and complete self with another person and enjoy their whole and complete self.

Even without naming anything, we have imperfections from the other place. Us. Yeah. Um, I think what you said too is so important to people. And you talked about [00:45:00] losing a child, but it's losing anybody that we love to be in a relationship. Of course. Every relationship ends, whether it is through divorce or death or separation of some kind.

And to be able to be in that relationship in the wholeness of it, knowing that in this, you know, human life, that it will end at some point, but not needing, um, anything other than the time that you have with them. And I think that's a big challenge that we, that we deal with where we move into such fear of losing that we're not really engaged in.

Well, let's, in being in living and loving and enjoying the, the space that we're in right then, whether it's the Grand Canyon or whether it's your own, you know, backyard connect, what you said to what we've discussed in, in a relationship. If you don't think you're getting your needs met, I [00:46:00] promise you. You will seek the fulfillment of those needs somewhere else, whether it is through not being home, whether it's through another relationship, a million different things.

But where did that absence of, where did that feeling come from? It's unconsciousness at work. It's not consciousness. And whatever it is you feel that you're missing on the inside, I promise you you're gonna try to find it on the outside. And here comes the suffering. I had a conversation with my, my current partner, uh, Jill and I have been together almost eight years.

And, and we had noticed just as of late, we sort of been, we can get, get to kind of, um, bickering a little bit sometimes where one person will say something and it's in a bit of a tone that's maybe not. Ideal and the other person will sort of respond in a kinda a similar tone and it can become where we're expressing this, like you [00:47:00] said, we're, we're basically unconscious there when we're doing that and we have our weekly relationship meetings and this last one we came up and I decided that for me, I said, you know what I'm gonna own, here's what I'm gonna do.

I'm gonna, in the mornings, I'm going to set my intention for the day that I see you newly. I see you Just, I said, 'cause you know, think about. I, when I first met her, would I talk to her in the same way I'm talking to her now when I first met her? Or would I, if I just met somebody new, would I talk to them the way I'm talking to her now?

The answer is no. So what's different? And it's unconsciousness. I have slipped into an unconscious state and I don't want to be there. And so I'm determined to see her new each day. That's my week. That's my, and we'll, and then, you know, she's my accountability partner. So we'll see. We'll see next. We'll see [00:48:00] how I, I gotta, I got my work cut out for me, but she's gonna be grading me.

I'm, I'm sure of it. Well, well, we all, we all did. That's such a powerful question of what happened. And, um, there's a lot out there today about when did Americans become so mean or. Why are people so ready to say hateful things, whether it's online or on a sign or, you know. Mm-hmm. In any, in any kind of medium.

And it is, it's unconsciousness. Because if we were conscious, we would know that what happens to you happens to me. That the energy I put out there, I am absolutely boomeranging it back to myself. If we really got that, would we say another, even think another, and of course a miracle says every thought in genders, either peace or, or.

Mm-hmm. Every thought creates love or hate every thought, you know, as you're talking about starting your day out, setting your intention in me, much less actually saying it. Right. You know, and that, that floored me when I read that, that one has [00:49:00] stuck with me a lot of things. Uh, you asked about our background, you know, like, like, oh.

Uh, people, we find ourselves in this place of wanting to teach because we've been the beneficiary of such amazing teachers. Mm. I'm a former co course student. I'm not actively practicing, but I'm very well aware of the, the, uh, black, the it black and white. I don't that's the wrong word, but it's very, it's very clear on what the problem is.

It's very clear. We don't have the, so many people don't have relationships with themselves, so how can you have relationships with other people that are not based on needing anything from them for any reason, you know, to be okay. I mean, that's a, it's a very different way of, of looking at, at things, and yet, relationships is where.

It's where we get to find out, you know, who and what we are. Mm-hmm. [00:50:00] And, um, I think one of the challenges people face is that, um, we hear things like, well, you, you deserve respect, or You should heal out loud, or, you know, and there's no consciousness in that. That's just letting mind, body and emotions take the reins and run off the rails with you.

Because if I really, um, am conscious I'm gonna see that, like Hayden said before, every time I'm upset is because I'm afraid there's something wrong with me and that I can resolve. I, you cannot resolve it for me. And, you know, yeah. Well go, go back to Travis. Go back to what you said about your weekly relationship meeting.

How do you, how, how do we maintain the passion? That intensity of love that we experienced in the beginning, how do we, how do we maintain that over 30 years? Because I, when I was [00:51:00] young in my first relationship, I did not know how to do that. And now, and I say this all the time, I fall every day. I fall more in love with Terry.

We can't wait to see one another. I mean, we're almost glued to one another here at the office. And even that's not enough. You know, how how can that be created? How can people find that sanctuary and relationship? It means we're gonna have to know something more than what we grew up with. What our mind tells us it is about.

It has to go beyond the horizontal physical and into the spiritual invisible. Mm-hmm. And then the relationship can blossom and turn into, you know, beyond what you thought was possible. It's basically moving beyond the transactional nature that we have given our relationships. And that you, I will love you [00:52:00] if, and we don't think we're doing that initially, but we find out later we've been doing that all along.

And when you say expectation or the is the great relationship killer? It is absolutely correct. Uh, let me, let's move on now to, I wanna talk about, uh, truth springing, uh, just as an entity. What is truth springing? I know we. When anybody hears me mention, I say wellspring, and that's sort of obviously what you, well what you are, but truths springing comes from that.

And I wanna just give you a space to elaborate. What is truths springing and, and, and how do you see it function? It was a progression. Uh, we started, um, MindSpring in 1995. Our work was based on leadership development, individual coaching, team development. Uh, but as the work continued to expand and we were [00:53:00] looking at this issue of wellness, then we created Wellspring Wellness Center.

And here come all these other people, you know, who are involved, uh, here on campus with, with their expertise and the things they do. And about 15 years ago, I won't go into all of it, but there was something that happened and I came home. I told Terry, I said something just happened and I knew that it was a game changer.

I knew that my whole life had just changed and it had to do with consciousness and how I, um, the person that I met, who was gonna be the conduit to teach me about this. And where is the source of understanding this thing called the truth of who and what I am. Where is that? Where do I find that? I, you know, there have been a million different books written, uh, about it, and yet [00:54:00] the world has not changed.

So that was the beginning of it. And then we spent the last, I would say 13, 14 years really being just. Dedicated to putting this together and trying to come up or not come up with, to, um, organize a language that people can understand because existence is invisible and it goes on and on and on. That yes, this life, it depends on what people believe this life ends.

But that doesn't mean that that invisible part of you ends. So what is that? What is the, um, purpose of that? If it comes here for this period of time and then it moves somewhere else, what is it here for? Why are we here? What is the, um, intent of coming into a physical body and, and dealing with. Loss, whether it's, you know, obviously a loved one.

When we lose a loved one, or as Hayden said, a job or [00:55:00] relationship that or job, and we deal with self-doubt or we deal with, um, setbacks and disappointments, why in the world would we do that? If we were of the divine, why would we come in? And one of the most fascinating answers that does jive with how I was brought up as far as background, but the teachers that we've had in the work we've done over the last 15 years has brought this into much clearer focus that we are here for more than just this blip on the screen.

And the purpose is to be the divine manifest. It's not that I'm some sinner that's not worth, you know, we have all kinds of images around that. It's the only way that the divine can experience itself is through you or through me or through any of our listeners. It's, it's, it's the invisible it, it can't, um, evolve.

It can experience itself. In a form. And I get to be that form at this time. And so how I use this time is not, it's not frivolous, it's not insignificant. You [00:56:00] know, some reason said before where not some insignificant little tiny speck, um, in the universe in some moment in time that there's a real meaning and purpose to it.

And finding that is why we created tree springing. And it's been a, it's been difficult because of this, the invisible nature of existence and trying to conscious create yes, creating a language that people can understand. But that's why we have a conference because we really we're so excited about it.

And the agenda is, the agenda is like, man, I just wanna go be a student there. It's amazing to me, and, and I, I have so many different words for it, but it is amazing to me that here we are in 2025. With the collapse that is beginning, we are at a point where we can begin to discuss [00:57:00] the journey of the soul and what the soul is doing here.

Terry said something and it reminded me. Sure, sure. Bendo referred to it as the mutual debt. The mutual debt is the debt that we owe for the privilege of being here. Of being in a physical body, not to talk about love and how great sex is, but to experience love and the joy of sex and great Mexican food and whatever it is, the, the feel of the warm motion.

War Ramen, ramen noodles. Don't forget those. Exactly. Spicy we get to the restaurant. Travis was so focused, he's gotten in that menu where those spicy ramen, man, it's the same thing every time They know me there. Exactly. But how wonderful that is. Now here's the catch and, and we are at a place now in the [00:58:00] evolutionary process where these things can finally be discussed because until they are, we cannot solve the issue of our existence.

And as I said, we can begin to discuss this issue of the soul. It is only in the physical that the soul evolves. I love that it does not evolve. When it passes away, it consolidates it, um, it goes through, it's depending on the synthesizes, it synthesizes it, um, on based, completely on the level of consciousness that, that individual's practicing.

It can spin. Well, I won't go into all of that, right? Terry slapped me on the hand. Don't bring that up. Don't talk about that. But it's only in the, the fiscal that it evolves when it passes way it consolidates not just this lifetime, but all of its previous lifetimes. And then at a certain [00:59:00] point in the process, it will choose to come back and the process begins again.

REO referred to it as the mutual debt. We do, it's a debt for the privilege of being here, but it also has a debt towards us for our willingness to come here and go through this suffering and this pain of being an unconscious human being on its way to becoming conscious and mastering the process of life.

So it's death to us in that way. Saving the world. Yeah. And in that way, the, the world is saved. And in that process, as we have all experienced, even in our worst moments, it seems as though there's a helping hand. It's like in, in that moment of need, it's like all of a sudden something we can see maybe just for a second [01:00:00] that everything is gonna be okay.

Mm-hmm. I can, I can, I can do this, I can move through this. But it, it's so mathematical in, in so many ways. The, and one of the ways that I describe it is the outcome of your life. And now this is simplified, but the outcome of your life resides between two parameters. What you in your mind are capable of creating.

And the second one is what you and your heart are capable of enduring. Show me how the individual's dealing with that. I do a pretty good job of drawing, you know, what's getting ready to happen and also eliminate eliminates, and that's the journey of the song. It eliminates the experience so many people have of meaninglessness.

I mean, that's really all there is, is meaning, is what can I create? And in the midst of that creation, um, and its importance to [01:01:00] me individually, but also to the collective, what am I able and willing to endure? And sometimes it's just patience and sometimes it's loss and everything in between. But, but it's how to consciously.

But they're not meaningless. How to consciously, intentionally, deliberately move into the fear of meeting both those parameters. Because when you start operating consciously, it's not like it's gonna be a cake wall. 'cause now you may be absolutely terrified to take this next step. But that's what the soul is requiring to exceed its current understanding.

Just like when you experience loss, and that's the, except now you're doing it consciously. So why would you expect anything but good to happen? Mm-hmm. And, and that's the way that that works and that's the, the way that we, um, have learned [01:02:00] to view equanimity, which is difficult things. And, um. Things that we love to experience are equal in what we can gain from them and how they move us forward in our evolution and our understanding.

As long as, not as long as, but often what I try to do is just reject the difficult things and only stick to the, let's go to the Caribbean again. Yeah, go get another hot. I love it. Well, you guys have a conference coming up September 11th through 14th. It's the Truth Spring Conference, and I know that you've got a, I've seen some of the, some of the posters up at your place of business and it's got, you've got some really cool, uh, speakers and, and some, some, some really interesting things going on there.

What, who is this conference for? Who are the speakers and what can they expect? Uh, if I give a, um, overview in [01:03:00] order to answer those questions there, we do have, uh, the keynote speaker and we have another gentleman who's giving a keynote speech, but the conference is actually a true learning and teaching conference.

I'm not even interested in what I have to say. Uh, I'm not interested in my opinion about current events, et cetera, because that's just more talk. Mm-hmm. This is, we, we have constructed a very keen curriculum around spiritual concepts and realizations that are guiding the content of each of the classes and programs.

So, you know who, who is the conference for, and please jump in if you, if you wanna supply an answer.

It, it's for, it's for anybody who is truly interested in improving the quality and understanding of their life. Come to terms and [01:04:00] grips with the purpose of their life and their existence, who and who and what they really are. Some people, uh, some people myself and most people I know are saying, what can I do in the face of this collapse of everything around us, not just in our country, but globally?

What can I do individually? And the answer really is, it's to go within and develop my own, um, a greater understanding of why I am here and what is the purpose, all of this, because everything is either good or is working toward the good. So who this conference is for is somebody who is interested in what's possible.

Because ev every time, whether it's a forest fire or a flood or divorce, or a lost job, anytime there's destruction, creation is right around the corner. Something new is going to come. That's just how. Everything works. And you, there's, I mean, I challenge anybody to find a loophole in that, that there is something else coming.

[01:05:00] And what comes is dependent really on, on us as individuals and what we decide we want to, um, build and create and foster and nurture. Now, our keynote speaker, Vikram Gandhi is a, um, documentary filmmaker. He is from New York, New Jersey, but I think he lives in LA now. And he did a documentary about 10 years ago, 12 years ago, called Kumar, in which he's, he's of East Indian, um, descent, but he was born in New Jersey and he pretended to be a guru from India and grew his hair out and, um, became, uh, very skilled at yoga and, and actually has a, had a following.

And that was the documentary that people will follow. Those who they think have the answer and his message was, you don't need an answer from someone else. You need to go inside and find your own, you know, and connect to that part of you. That is, that that does have the, the strength and the connection to, [01:06:00] um, the divine that we've lost touch with.

So I don't know if I said that exactly how, uh, Vikram would say it, but that's why we asked him to come be a speaker and he graciously accepted. He came to Asheville to hang out for a weekend with us and other, the other teachers, like I said, one of whom is originally from Ukraine and lives here are in Greenville now.

And another, um, who was in corporate America has her MBA in business and finance finance from Harvard. And she's not speaking along those lines. She's definitely speaking around consciousness, but they have varied backgrounds. Um. I've had, I, and we do have the body included. We have meditation and yoga, Tai chi in the mornings.

But all, all the whole days, the three days are arranged around to first get information, then learn how to engage with it, and then at a dynamic level, apply it in your life so that the takeaway will be, I can do these [01:07:00] things that will create change and improvement and expansion in my life. The online project, the, the learning project itself, which we're in the third year of now, is called the becoming new journey.com, and that's where we've put so much of our effort in this.

But to be clear, what we believe, uh, is that consciousness is a result of realization. So the conference is based on that concept that growth can be accelerated and achieved. Through spiritual realization, which is what all the classes are about. Did did I? Yeah. It's gonna be a lot of fun too. We have some cool and interactive engaging things, so it's not sitting around listening to people talk.

No. Hey, it's about community. I'm sure it's, uh, you're gonna meet people, you're gonna [01:08:00] find others that are, um, struggling in the same way that you might be. And having, and coming up with solutions together and learning. And, you know, I love conferences. I think it's, these are the most expansive opportunities for growth that you can, that you can do.

These kinds of weekend events and retreats are my absolute favorite. But I like the shorter ones because you can do it if you're local, you can go, you can do it and, and, uh, learn a lot and connect and it's just, just awesome. Hey, I wanted to just also let people know too, if you are interested in learning more about Wellspring, um, you can go to wellspring asheville.com and truth springing asheville do com, both of those websites.

And then of course, what was just mentioned with becoming you com. Uh. I've been, I've been blown away and I feel like we could definitely, I think we're gonna have to have another session. You guys, this is, we're just getting into the, we've, we've hit the tip of the iceberg. People don't realize it's just a temp so far, but, uh, do you think maybe down the road we do [01:09:00] another, we would love it.

I love, thank you so much. We get a little carried away because this is such an important topic, not only in our own lives, but of course something we wanna share with other, with other people. So we really appreciate the opportunity, Travis, to be with you, number one, and to be with your listeners of course, as well.

I'll share one last thing, and so I, because it's. I love to implicate and create a stage for growth. And, and I'll say this for anybody who is listening, uh, to this, I promise you, I give you my word, that what I'm getting ready to say is true. You're not gonna believe it. Your mind is gonna go, that, that guy's crazy.

He doesn't know what he's talking about, but I'm gonna tell you something that is true. And in one day, in one lifetime you'll realize it. There's nothing wrong with you. Mm-hmm. There never was until you made up a story as part of how your soul engages in the [01:10:00] evolutionary process. But your story doesn't make it real.

It's only your story and the truth of who you are is sitting right there waiting for you to see it. There's nothing wrong with you. Wonderful. And I love our story time together. This has been amazing and I can't think of a better way to end. I got nothing to say. You've, you've, I can't top that. So we're just gonna call it, call it good here, guys.

I really appreciate, thank you so much for joining. You're welcome. Appreciate you. Thank you. Thanks, Travis. Thanks Travis. So thanks so much. Bye bye-Bye. 

To experience the heart-centered offerings of Wellspring Wellness Center from transformative workshops to sacred community gatherings, visit wellspring asheville.com and don't miss the upcoming Truth Spring Conference happening September 11th through the fourteenth@truthspringingasheville.com, where Hayden and Terry will be holding space for deep spiritual exploration.

Whether you're already walking a spiritual path or just beginning to awaken this event offers an opportunity to connect, [01:11:00] learn, and grow in conscious community.

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